502 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
502 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, March 20, 1990 10:00 pm eastern time
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Topic: Programming Environments
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum
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AFA Gary J Tonight's topic is "Programming Environments"
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AFA Gary J It looks like we need to use forum PROTOCOL, so....
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AFA Gary J If you have a question, type a "?" on a line by itself, or if you
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have
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AFA Gary J a comment on the current topic, type a "!" on a line by itself.
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It looks
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AFA Gary J like "Mac Hater" got the first question in. GA, Mac Hater
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Mac Hater has Nicholas expanded on his post "there will be a new development
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tool within
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Mac Hater 72 hours.." or does anyone (who can tell us) say more? sounds
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pretty fun.
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Mac Hater ga
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A2GS Drop the ! and make it a ?
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Mac Hater guess not. :) ga
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AFA Gary J I guess no one's talking, Mac Hater. Anyone?
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Mac Hater ga with the next question
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AFA Gary J Ok.. GA, A2.
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A2GS Not a direct programming Q, but does deal with Devloping for the
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II....
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A2GS As far as I can tell, Apples opinion/marketing of the II
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stinks....
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A2GS Is there anything we can do change it?????????
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AFA Gary J GA, Pest
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Pest II I think that perhaps that's a little strong...
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A2GS You can't be serious?!
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Pest II I think that there are many people at Apple who'd like to see a
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healthy AppleII
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Pest II perhaps they aren't the "right people" though...what I'd do is
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write to the
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A2GS Yes, But I'm referring to the guy's who make the $$ decisions (ex.
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marketing)
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Pest II "powers that be" the people who can indeed change that sort of
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thing
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Pest II Unless you want to infiltrate Apple (like I do :-))
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A2GS Unfortunately there have been dozens of writing campaigns and it
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doesn't look
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A2GS like they've accomplished anything.
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AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Tracy
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AFL TracyP Barney Stone's group may have turned around the top-echelon
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Matt DTS There have been dozens of campaigns *discussed*. I personally
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don't know of one that happened.
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AFL TracyP of marketeers at Apple, but apparently those efforts
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Pest II Me niether Matt
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AFL TracyP have yet to translate to the rank-and-file. How else do you
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A2GS That is a possibility, Matt, But either way I'm sure the head hogs
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know
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AFL TracyP explain Apple's announcement of the DMA SCSI card st week,
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AFL TracyP then a big party for a whole herd of Mac announcements
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A2GS how II people feel and a letter won't make any difference (nor
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will 10,000
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A2GS letters, unfortunately)
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AFL TracyP yesterday? Why not include the SCSI announcement with the
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AFL TracyP rest? Or is Apple still trying to tell us they're ashamed of the
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A2?
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AFL TracyP done
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A2GS Yes, I think they are.
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AFA Gary J Interesting point, Tracy
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AFA Gary J GA, Danny
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AFA DannyH I don't want to sound like an apoligist for Apple but, I think
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Apple has done
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AFA DannyH one helluva job for the Apple II users for the last TWO
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years....
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AFA DannyH we hanve seen new peripherrals and new computers as well
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AFA DannyH as a lot of new System Software with prromises
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AFA DannyH of even more to come, GA
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A2GS Oh come on......there hasn't been an ad for a II in the past 2
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years
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A2GS and in that time I've seen 100's of Mac ads, saw one a few days
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ago!!!
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A2GS Big deal!!!
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A2GS I'm talking about future developments (ex. machines) as well as
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Marketing
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A2GS which will make the machine strong and improve 3rd party
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development, which
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A2GS as this point is virtually Nill, except for a few loyal companies.
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A2GS Done.
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AFA Gary J I think we all could run on this topic all night, but it's true,
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that's not
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AFA Gary J what we're here for.
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LordRoland I agree --> new topic.
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AFA Gary J Let's move on to Markus's question. GA, Markus
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Markus I've heard APW is going to be updated. Has anyone heard anything?
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ga
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A2GS I warned you this wouldn't be a programming Q :)
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AFA Gary J GA, Roland
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LordRoland Yeah, APW is being updated. I don't know much though. New linker
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and stuff.
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Micol Sys Any day now, from what I hear
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Markus Any idea how soon?
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LordRoland Or am I thinking of ORCA?
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AFA Gary J GA, Coach
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Micol Sys Or sometime in the near future (next few months)
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Tamira didn't APW 3 just come out???
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Coach101 In the last 6 months Apple issued an update for APW (tools and
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interfaces)
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Coach101 that included a new linker, librarian, REZ and DeREZ tools.
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Markus Yep, got those when they first hit. :)
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Coach101 There is an APW 2.0 meandering its way through Apple but when it
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will be
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Coach101 released would be anybody's guess... I think there is a little
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more
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Coach101 information in the development environment area here in ADV..
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ga
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Markus thanks. I'm done. :)
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AFA Gary J Ok, Thanks Markus (and Coach). Let's move on to Gibber's
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question.
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A GibberFC Does anyone know when the new sound tools will be available?
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A GibberFC I called APDA and they had info on them but no date :(
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A GibberFC ga
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AFA Gary J I have no idea, anyone else?
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LordRoland Hmm. I thought they were coming with Sys. 6.0.
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A GibberFC The person that had the answer ducked out..
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A GibberFC :(
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Pest II If APDA doesn't know...does anyone?
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AFA Gary J Release dates are hard to come by with ANY software.
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Coach101 APDA (phone people) would probably not know until it was
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deliverable !
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LordRoland Matt would've known.
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AFA Gary J (Especially comeing from Apple)
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A2GS Dave????
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Dave Lyons Sorry...don't know.
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Dave Lyons (I'm sure APDA doesn't know, though.)
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AFA Gary J Ok, Let's move on to LordRoland's question. GA.
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LordRoland OK. I'm working on a term. program. Everything is speeding along
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fine except
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LordRoland for the text. I was using the toolkit, but obviously it's too
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slow. It seems
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LordRoland that the best way to do it is to zap the char. directly into
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screen ram.
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LordRoland Does anyone have any recomendations as to the easiest way to go
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about doing
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LordRoland this. I don't relish typing in the individual bitmaps for the
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letters.
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LordRoland GA
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AFA Gary J GA, Pest
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Pest II Well, I thought that the zapping into RAM method was exactly the
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sort of thing
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Pest II that Apple want us to avoid...have you used the COUT routine?
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Pest II I don't know that it's any faster, but you probably wouldn't have
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to
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AFA Gary J COUT? On the graphics screen?
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LordRoland No, I haven't. It's graphics based. Desktop. I need more speed.
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I don't
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LordRoland really care about Apple Guidelines. GA
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Pest II Ah, I see...thought you meant text text
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LordRoland Sorry Apple :)
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AFA Gary J GA, A2
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A2GS Seeing as how your somewhat of an "Apple Rebel" like myself :)
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.....
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Coach101 Ga Dave
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Dave Lyons If you're using QuickDraw, you'll get a *big* speed
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A2GS What exactly are you trying to avoid (besides the tools)?
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Dave Lyons benefit from drawing a LINE at a time (with, say, DrawString)
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Dave Lyons instead of a character at a time.
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Dave Lyons As far as going by the "Apple guidelines" goes, if you can't get
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the job done with the
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Dave Lyons toolbox, by all means do what you have to do. Just realize that
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rules aren't there to give
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Dave Lyons fascists something to do, but to maximize compatibility with
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future hardware and software,
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Dave Lyons and with other present software (for ex, your
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A2GS <-- Facist???
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LordRoland I hate buffering the text though, cause it just doesn't seem
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'natural'.
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A2GS What are you trying to do/avoid doing?
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Dave Lyons app will work much better with a DA in front of your window if
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you're drawing with QD than if
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Dave Lyons you're drawing right to the screen!).
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LordRoland I just want the letters up fast. I want the screen to keep up
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with the modem.
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A2GS Then use Apple's default font....
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Dave Lyons In other words, Apple doesn't invent rules to *annoy* you, but
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to
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Dave Lyons make life cool in the long run.
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LordRoland Not fast enough. A2
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Coach101 How fast is fast?
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A2GS store the bitmaps of the letters in a lookup table....
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A2GS (you didn't let me finish :)
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LordRoland Right on A2GS, but I don't want to type in the bitmaps. I'd
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prefer to get
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A2GS Then use an x,y coordinate system to draw the characters at the
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correct
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A2GS place on the screen.
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A2GS So use Apple's defualt font!!
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LordRoland the font in memory and then bypass QD in getting them up.
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A2GS Capture it from a SHR screen or something.
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LordRoland Hmm. I thought about that. I guess that's my only option.
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Mac Hater is Quickdraw using shadowing? that'll speed up. also preshifted
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shaston is
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Mac Hater fast.
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A2GS It's the easiest (if you ask me)
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AFA Gary J But as Dave points out, you loose system compatability by doing
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things that
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AFA Gary J way.
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A2GS Mac, using shadowing for such small objects would actually slow
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things down!!
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LordRoland I think it was Matt who mentioned reading the actual Font Data.
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LordRoland On the NET.
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A2GS Yes, but do you know where that is in ROM?
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LordRoland Nope.
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LordRoland Anyone?
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A2GS Well then your stuck doing it my way :)
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LordRoland Educated guesses?
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A2GS You can search for it using the monitor....
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Mac Hater you can get the font handle and go from there...
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LordRoland Stab in the dark?
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LordRoland I'm on a Rom 02. Is it even in ROM?
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A2GS First draw the font on the screen....look at the data from within
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the monitor
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AFA Gary J The font in ROM?
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Dave Lyons Hey, you can *get* the font handle with GetFont.
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A2GS and then search for a string of data in ROM which is identicle.
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Dave Lyons That's not a problem.
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A2GS Does that give the address of the FONT data in ROM?
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Mac Hater you're doing something wrong Lord Roland, TML Pascal has a example
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of a termina
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Dave Lyons The *problem* is blasting it to the screen FASTER than QuickDraw
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already does--you'll have
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Mac Hater program that runs fine w/ tools. AWGS runs fine.
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A2GS Are there headers that he'll have to look out for within the Font
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table?
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Dave Lyons to sacrifice some of the generality of QD to make it go
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faster--like lost some clipping, or force
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Dave Lyons it to be aligned to a byte or word in a certain way, etc.
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Dave Lyons The font data may be in RAM or ROM...it depends.
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Dave Lyons (And it doesn't matter much.)
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A2GS Default Font will be in ROM.
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LordRoland AWGS uses buffering. I really don't want that.
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LordRoland The only TML Pascal I've seen runs slow, slow, slow.
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CMOSness hi all
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AFA Gary J Ok, It looks like we've run into a dead end on your question,
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LordRoland.
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AFA Gary J Anything else?
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Dave Lyons Which TML was slow?
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Dave Lyons TML Pascal II uses Text Edit & updates pretty fast. It does
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suffer from some bugs in Text Edit
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Dave Lyons itself, but the speed isn't the problem.
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LordRoland Sorry. I was gone for a sec. V 1.5, dave.
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Dave Lyons Yeah, definitely check out TML Pascal II 1.x.
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Dave Lyons (done)
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LordRoland OK. Thanks everyone. I'm thru. (DONE)
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AFA Gary J Allright, let's move on to A2GS's question. GA A2
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A2GS 2 off the wall questions, one.....
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A2GS Anyone familiar with OCR (Optical Character Recognition) and where
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I can get
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A2GS info on it?
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A2GS GA
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LordRoland Not a clue.
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott :)
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AFL Scott You can get information on OCR in several books I have that are
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packed up
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AFL Scott right now...(I'm moving)... I'll be glad to email you the
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information once
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LordRoland Mac had it in 1987 :(
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AFL Scott I'm settled in my new home.
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A2GS Where'd you move to?
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A2GS (not my second Q :)
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AFL Scott Reston, VA.
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AFL Scott I haven't moved, yet... Done.
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AFA Gary J GA with your comment, CMOSness
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BillP Reston VA??? Who would live there??? :)
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CMOSness I was just going to say that
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CMOSness I remember a comp chronicals episode
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CMOSness about that, and maybe you could get info
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CMOSness thru them DONE.
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A2GS Great, I'm looking for info on how to write routines.
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Mac Hater you're moving with Scott also?
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AFA Gary J (I'd think that you'd want to be FURTHER away from there, Scott
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:)
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A2GS Second Q.....
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A2GS Anyone know if there are any advantages to using Huffman
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compression as opposed
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A2GS to LZW compression?
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A2GS GA
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LordRoland Check with Abaton for the OCR.
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A2GS The scanner people?
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LordRoland Yeah. They had a mac char. reader in Feb. 1987. I just happen to
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have the
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LordRoland ad in front of me.
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A2GS So where's there II version???????????
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A2GS :)
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A2GS BTW Anyone able to answer my second Q?
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LordRoland ?? Hack something together.
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Mac Hater huffman can be faster. ga
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AFA Gary J A2, as for compression routines, I know there are advantages and
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disadvantages
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AFA Gary J to either method, but don't recall the specifics.
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A2GS Compressing or decompressing?
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LordRoland Probably works through the serial port. Then use a DA to accept
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the input.
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Mac Hater decompression. lzw is faster if you search small series of bytes
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but then data
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Mac Hater is not always thoroughly compressed (repetetive graphics would
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be).
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A2GS Which is faster at decompressing?
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LordRoland Probably costs alot, so maybe, you shouldn't HACK something
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together.
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A2GS What would cost alot?
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AFA Gary J GA, CMOSness
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LordRoland The OCR.
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A2GS Why?
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A2GS If it's software based.
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LordRoland All Mac stuff is expensive. Plus, it's high tech stuff. Not
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really, but...
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CMOSness I was just wondering, A2, how does OCR fit into DL II (or does it
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:)
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A2GS It doesn't :) Just a pet project :)
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LordRoland It isn't software based, I don't think.
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CMOSness :)
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AFA Gary J GA, DHackerott
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DHackerott I'm also interested in OCR via ThunderScan
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LordRoland No way, Hackerott.
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DHackerott What input are you planning on?
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LordRoland I really don't think it would work.
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A2GS I'm interested VIA Quicky, but could also be applied to
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Thunderscan!
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AFA Gary J A2, why not put up something in the message boards. GA, Scott
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AFL Scott Yes way... it's possible. You just have to write routines that
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can match
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AFL Scott bit patterns...with some error factoring... it's not that hard,
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it's just
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AFL Scott time consuming... Basically for each font you need to recognize
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you need to
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AFL Scott have an equivalent bitpattern in memory to match each character.
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A2GS Exactly!
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LordRoland What is the resolution of Thuderscan. 100 dpi tops.
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A2GS There are a few hurdles which have to be overcome, it's not that
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easy.
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AFL Scott Done.
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AFA Gary J Thanks, Scott.
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A2GS I wouldn't use that technique....
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A2GS NOT at all accurate.
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AFL Scott How would YOU do it, then?
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A2GS Unless you have a bitmap for every FONT in the world!
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A2GS Hold on....
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AFA Gary J That's what character recognition currently has to do, isn't
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it?
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AFL Scott Yup.
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LordRoland Yeah. You need algorithms that'll work with most fonts.
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A2GS I would use "Feature Analysis".
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AFA Gary J GA, Marty
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AFL Marty It's not necessarily the case that you'd need a bitmap for every
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font
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AFA Gary J (Most of the recognition stuff I'm familiar with works with a
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limited type of
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AFL Marty in the world...
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AFA Gary J font and font size)
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AFL Marty All you really need is a bitmap that is "close enough" in some
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sense of
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AFL Marty the word.
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AFA Gary J Right, there should be margin for error
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A2GS That doesn't offer very much flexibility.
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AFL Marty For example, we can recognize the letter "x" in a wide variety of
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fonts...
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AFA Gary J GA, Bill
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BillP yea but...
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BillP won't we have outline fonts on the GS soon anyway. :)
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BillP ga
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AFL Marty not because we have memorized the fonts, but because there are
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elements
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AFL Marty of the character that identify it as being an x.
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AFL Marty done
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A2GS It's easier seen and recognized by the human eye then by an
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algorithm!
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AFL Marty I never said it was easy.
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AFA Gary J GA, Roland
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LordRoland I heard that we don't have the clock speed for Outline fonts.
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A2GS That's where Feature Analysis comes in.
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AFL Scott Explain feature analysis?
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott
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A2GS I've heard a lot of things which wren't true about the IIGS !!!
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A2GS Most weren't true!
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A2GS Feature Analysis....
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A2GS Basically you define a character from the alphabet by the lines
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and curves
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A2GS which make it up...
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A2GS Ex. the letter "A" is made up of 2 diagonal lines plus one
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horizontal line.
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LordRoland Does anyone know anyone called Harlock (AO name, of course)?
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LordRoland Sorry to interrupt!
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A2GS The letter "D" is made up of one vertical line and one half
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loop.
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A2GS Done.
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A GibberFC Unless it is block lettering... then it has 2 vertical and 2
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horizonal
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A GibberFC ga
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A2GS Exactly.
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott
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AFL Scott Exactly... I think we said that... Marty did, I know... not in so
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many words..
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AFA Gary J Right.
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AFL Scott however, you have to store the features somewhere... and vectors
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wouldn't
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A2GS I'm just trying to point out that using bitmaps is very
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inefficient.
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LordRoland Bitmaps won't work.
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LordRoland Well.
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DHackerott Has anyone actually used QUICKIE yet? Does it really, really
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work?
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AFL Scott be a good choice, IMHO. So how do you plan on defining the
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choices?
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AFL Marty I don't recall anyone arguing that they were efficient.
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AFL Dyfet (I had some nasty modem problems tonight :()
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AFL Marty Hi Dave!
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AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
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A2GS I've used Quickie....
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A GibberFC ack.... ga
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A2GS Defining what choices?
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LordRoland My dealer has one. I was pretty suprised.
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AFL Scott For the characters you plan on recognizing? Vectors, angles...
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what?
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AFA Gary J GA, Marty
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LordRoland Hey, I gotta go. Thanks everyone.
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A2GS Can't use angles (much to complicated and not very useful).....
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AFA Gary J Goodnight, Roland.
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AFL Marty Couldn't you store the bitmap of a "generic" font? Then compare
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the image of
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A2GS Plan to use vectors or something related to it....it's the
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algorithms that
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AFL Marty the scanned font to that of the stored one and if "most" of the
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points...
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A2GS are difficult to come up with...so I'm looking for some OCR books
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for
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A2GS some suggestions.
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AFL Marty are "close enough" to some character in the stored font, you have
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a match.
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A2GS Marty, What do you do when there's a wide range in FONT sizes?
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A2GS Feature Analysis solves this problem and is VERY flexible.
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Coach101 I think you have all missed on of the basic starting
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problems....
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Coach101 1) You have no idea what is horizontal and what is vertical.
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But
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AFL Marty I dunno. I'm just tossing out ideas as they pop into my head.
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Coach101 you probably know its not pure x or pure y!
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A2GS That's what the algorithms are for :)
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Coach101 Two, the old brain very quickly defined a line for you.. Your
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program
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AFL Marty If I were doing the project, I'd do it for one font size and
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AFL Marty improve it from there.
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Coach101 is going to have to figure out all of that stuff before even
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looking
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Coach101 for a character!
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A2GS Why is that?
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A2GS One of the main algorithms (besides helping with character
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definitions) is to
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A2GS locate a character.
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A2GS All OCR programs follow the same general rules for locating and
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defining a
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott
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A2GS character....
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AFL Scott Not necessary, Coach.. if an approximation map is "taught" to the
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software and
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A2GS I just want to know how they do it :)
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Tamira brb
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AFL Scott the software has an Orientation option, the main task of the
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scanning software
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Mac Hater y=mx+b bye all :)
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A2GS My guess is that you have to scan the screen for a black pixel on
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a white
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AFL Scott would be to only filter those bits which are below a certain
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threshold. After
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A2GS screen and from that determine the size and loaction of the
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character.
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A2GS Working from the black pixel on.
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AFL Scott that, the approximation map, or better yet, mask could be used to
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to tell
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AFA Gary J Sounds like a slow process to me.
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AFL Scott what character is present... it's not fast... That's why most OCR
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equipment
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AFL Scott does this all on board and just feeds ascii text to a host.
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AFL Scott The key is the scanner... it's got to be accurate.
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AFL Scott Done.
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A2GS Nobody said it was fast or easy....but I don't think it's that
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slow...
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Coach101 YEs, I have seen some very good results out of Kurtzweil
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equipment...
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Coach101 But, the context is very important. The stuff I have played
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around
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A2GS I think an entire page of text (1000 - 2000 characters) could be
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converted
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Coach101 with on PCs did not have a strong enought concept of context and
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would
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A2GS into ASCII in under 10 seconds....
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A2GS and that's a hell of a lot faster then typeing in the entire
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page!
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Coach101 change things like Entry_Point to Entry-(&&(&( That is, if
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shifted its
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Coach101 line too quickly because it did not know waht aline was... ga
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A2GS I've seen the results of using the Quickie and I think it's
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possible to do...
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A2GS but we'll never know till someone tries.
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A2GS Done (finally) !
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DHackerott Impatienlty awaiting to beta test for you!
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Coach101 :)
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