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- WELCOME TO THE PREMIER ISSUE OF -
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- -=>PHANTASY<=- -
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- A MONTHLY PUBLICATIOM AND NEWSLETTER OF -
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- THE -
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= INTERNATIONAL =
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- INFORMATION -
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= RETREIVAL =
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- GUILD -
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Volume Number One, Issue Number One Dated 10/31/90
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Table of Discontents:
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[1] The IIRG meets the FBI (Part 1)
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[2] What is The IIRG and why should I support it?
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[3] PHANTASY NEWS
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[4] Listing of PHANTASY Distribution Sites
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OFFICIAL DISLAIMER...
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All information in PHANTASY is from USER contributed material
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The Publishers and Editors of PHANTASY and THE IIRG disclaim
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any liability from any damages of any type that reader or
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user of information contained within this newsletter may encounter
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from the use of said information.
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PHANTASY is (C) 1990 by The IIRG
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IIRG and INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD is (C) 1982
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Editors Note- For Printing PHANTASY uses a 50 line
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page format by 80 Columns
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 1-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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THE INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD MEETS THE FBI
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(PART ONE)
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The following is a translation of a tape of the IIRG's meeting with the
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Federal Bureau of Investigations. The IIRG attended this meeting with
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a local users group. Some portions have been deleted to protect the
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members of the groups Identity and some Handles have been changed
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to further protect those identities. Some handles are still correct
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as these members did not request anonymity.
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We would offer the date of this meeting but do not feel it is prudent
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as this would further risk some members to scrutiny.
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EDITORS NOTE- Please do not scream about the translation of the
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FBI Agents portions. This is the way he actually
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talked and we have brought it directly to text-form.
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Following a introduction by the President of the Local Users Group
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this is the way the meeting proceeded.
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FBI AGENT- I have a lot of information here, but first I'd like to thank
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(DELETED) and the (DELETED) for inviting me here tonight.
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Its a chance to share some information and maybe give you all
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some insight of maybe what we do know and what we don't know,
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and maybe relate a couple of cases the FBI's been involved in.
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There are not a whole lot, the ahhh law that governs computer
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crime has only been on the books since 1984, I think ahhh that
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Connecticut is one of the first states to ahhh, have a computer
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oriented law, ahhh as (DELETED) mentioned my name is BILL
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ATKINSON and I'm a special agent with the FBI and I'm assigned
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with the Hartford resident angency.
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I have a background in law enforcement, I spent nine and a half
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in Washington D.C. on the police department and I've been with
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the FBI since 1984.
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I dont have a computer background and you'll know that,
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That after i get done and you ask me one question and it just
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wipes me out right there.
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OLD TIMER- (ROBUST LAUGH)
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FBI AGENT- The cases that our office has been involved in, They have used
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computer experts from Washington D.C., out of the Washington
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field office.
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I think they have two, who are court certified computer experts
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 2-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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FBI AGENT- So that lets you know as far as law enforcemaent goes its a,
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It's a brand new ball game, Ahhh I know the case I'm gonna
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tell you about or one of them. They had a whole room full of
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disks, Whatever the big brown tapes are. They had a whole room
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full of them. They needed a computer expert just to figure out
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what the evidence was that the seized.
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WHOLE ROOM- (LAUGHTER)
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FBI AGENT- Computer crime, the way it looks. Is going to affect everyone a
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lot more than your common neighborhood bank robberies.
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They last forever and ever and once they're detected, the people
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who are involved in it really don't want to report it.
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And the costs of changing the policies that allowed it to
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happen are just astronomical. We can see that with the Pratt
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and Whitney, different segments of government contract bidding.
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It's just astronomical the amount of money that it costs the
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taxpayers. It probably could pay my salary for at least six
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months anyway.
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OLD TIMER- (Extremely Sadistic laugh)
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FBI AGENT- Maybe when I get done you'll see at least what the FBI is
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trying to do, I'll try to touch the motives that generates the
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computer crime and the problems that it creates, and the
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problem it creates for the people trying to solve the crimes.
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First let me say that we are an asset that probably every
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segment of United States society can use the FBI.
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There are a lot of people who don't know just how helpful we
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can be. They think that if they call the FBI, they're gonna be
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recorded and theres gonna be a dossier opened on you
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immediatly.
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Some of the phone calls we get shold be recorded just for the
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pure craziness of them all.
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But don't hesitate, that if on your job site or somewhere down
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the line you come across something that appears to be
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suspicious or just out of the ordinary.
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Or some information that will help one of the people in our
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office. We have accountants who work white collar crime, we've
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had a couple of guys who worked on the Pratt and Whitney,
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STANGER case, which I'll get into later, who keep pretty much in
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touch with the people in Washington as to whats going on.
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But theres always someone out there that has a new wrinkle,
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 3-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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FBI AGENT- I'm sure theres a few people in this room, Whats the term?
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HACKERS, that come across things the rest of the country
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doesn't know is out there.
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And with Every crime, every computer crime, you probably have
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the Fraud By Wire Statutes that is violated and the
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Interstate Transportation of stolen property, bank fraud,
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embezzelment, and mail fraud.
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There all tied in, and where you might think where theres just
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a computer problem, it might go on and be a whole interstate
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system thats being worked, and it happens.
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It happened recently in Texas, we had some people along the
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whole SouthWest United States that was just being bounced from
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one system to another. It took them months and months to
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figure out and then they decided not to prosecute.
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So there might be something you'd like to give us or you
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might not want to get involved, or at least if you want to use
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us as a sounding board, feel free to do that.
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I know one of the things the agent who gave me this
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information said "Tell them about a definition of computer
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crime" So I went back to my books, I went back to Quantico
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two years ago, and I remembered one of the instructers down
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there said "I'm gonna give you a definition"
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So lets start out by saying,
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Really Computer Crime isn't really Computer Crime
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It's just a crime where a Computer happened to be in the Room
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With that, everyone looks like wheres this guy coming from?
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Nobodys gonna actully say the computer commited the crime!
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So we had figured this guy had punched one too many buttons
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along the way and had lost touch with reality.
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I don't know if you can consider the computer the criminal
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or the person programming the computer the criminal.
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Once the crime has been defined, if we're notified about one
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and determine whats been stolen or whats been altered or
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manipulated, We can pretty well tell who committed the crime.
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That parts the easy part.
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There will be instances where you know whats been done, and
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you know who did it. But as you are aware of, computer
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programs and manipulations you can do with computers,
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it's very difficult to prove a certain person commited the
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crime.
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Thats where I guess the problem lies in this day and age
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Its not knowing whats been done or knowing who did it,
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-END PAGE 4-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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FBI AGENT- Its being able to prove it.
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And what we know with these laws being on the books for
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two years, there is no case law and every time one of these
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cases goes to court its a whole new baliwick for the
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judge, the prosecuters, and the defense attornys.
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Theres no, NO precedent has been really set as to whats
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evidence, whats real evidence, are copies evidence?
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In federal court, copies can't be admitted as evidence.
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So a computer printout? Is the printout the evidence?
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Is the computer the evidence? Is the programmer the evidence?
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And every time you go to court in a different district
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you have a different opinion.
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KNIGHTHACK- So if your gonna do it, Do it now?
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FBI AGENT- Yeah, do it while theres still time to figure out what the
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solution is....By the way, Your name please??
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WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
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FBI AGENT-When are you going to commit this crime?
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KNIGHTHACK- Tommorrow!
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FBI AGENT- Thats true, thats what the whole problem is.
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They've been passed, all the laws have been passed by the
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legislators and haven't been interpeted yet by the judges
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What little case law there is can change with every
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different program that comes up, because as the computer
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gets more refined, So do the crimes.
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What was a murder yesterday, is still a murder tommorrow,
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But what was a computer crime today, wasn't yesterday, and
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probably won't be tommorrow.
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I'm sure you can all think up different things you'd like to
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do, or in your case (POINTING AT KNIGHTHACK), have done and a
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WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
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KNIGHTHACK- I'm leaving now.
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FBI AGENT- Just the imagination, you can look at the different computer
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games, I have a case I'm trying to work on, COMPUTER PIRACY
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Just one of the computer boards themselves that are going into
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the games, and they say thats rather simple.
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Because you can look at a certain format and know the person,
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who put it together.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 5-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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FBI AGENT- And he basically initials the work by the way he puts it
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together. But now if he looks at it and you look at it,
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you would all say "Yeah you can tell thats what was done"
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But if you give it to a jury to look at, that doesn't know
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input from output, they would have no idea who put this
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transistor here.
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WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
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FBI AGENT- Are transistors still used, I don't know
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MERCENARY- AHHH, Not to often.
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WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
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FBI AGENT- So ahhh, thats the whole problem, another problem we have,
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I dont know if its as big a problem now as when, Oh I don't
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know you can tell me, with people under the ages of 17 and
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16 getting into different databanks and manipulating those
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systems or just passing information around on the BBS's or
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whatever.
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The ahhh. federal prosecution of anyone under the age of 17
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is preety well unheard of, You have to get a specific request
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from the Department of Justice and a United States Attorny
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is gonna want to prosecute the case. And it has to be clear
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to the FBI and everyone else and if it doesn't really happen
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on the state level, They'll prosecute from 16 and under,
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They say they will here in Connecticut.
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But then you look at the crimes themselves and you know whats
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been done. Just to get into the bank and pass the information
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Will that be determined to be a crime?
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Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
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One agent I know in our office that was working a local case
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involving an insurance company. Where a High-School student
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had gained access through getting initialy in the database
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and then he'd go to bed at night and programmed his computer
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to go through all the numbers and find the code, When he
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got up in the morning, Low and Behold, he was in this
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insurance companies database.
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Well when he did, he fooled around for a couple of months
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The Insurance company, (Whose name will go unmentioned), before
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you all go out and cancel your polocies tommorrow.
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He was in and out for about two months, and they got a trap on
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the call and placed him in East Hartford or Manchester area.
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 6-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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FBI AGENT- and they really didn't know what to do with it, he really
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wasn't doing anything but they knew he was coming online,
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late at night and early in the morning. They were perplexed,
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How do we stop him, really who is he?
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Because all they really knew was it was coming back to a
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telephone in East Hartford or Manchester.
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Well I guess they got there answer in one short way,
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he put on a message one morning and lets see what did it say?
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It went something to this effect,
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He identified all there customers, and all there insurance
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users and he wanted a corvette or he would notify all the
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users the system was unsafe and he had access to all there
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accounts.
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Well I guess they sent him back a message, and they went
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back and forth till they narrowed down who they were
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dealing with through the telephone company with a trap on the
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line and they traced it to a specific phone.
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Anonymous- He shold have waited till they went on strike.
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Whole Room- (Laughter)
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FBI AGENT- Then they delivered the corvette and he came to pick it up,
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and he was only 14 or 15 and couldn't have driven anyway
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But they said shame on you and don't do it again, he was
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scared
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MERCENARY- A good little slap on the wrist.
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FBI AGENT- And now he's probably 18 or whatever and shooting for a rolls
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KNIGHTHACK- No, now he's probably in the FBI's Computer.
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FBI AGENT- Yeah, thats probably right, now thatcase was easy, that was
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extortion, he made a demand, then said what he was going to do
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and he was going to try to hurt there business.
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So in that case, they had extortion and had he been over
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17 they could have prosecuted him easily.
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ANONYMOUS- Almost more effective than a gun!
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FBI AGENT- Yes, It really is when your dealing with the millions they're
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dealing with and the amount of loss they could under go.
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If they decided to go with the prosecution, that would have
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 7-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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FBI AGENT- been easy. But since he was that age and they didn't even
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do that, Now had he done something less extreme or more
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extereme, whatever the case may be.
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What would they have done with him? Thats still the question.
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Theres never been a computer crime in Connecticut and thats
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one of the bolder statutes as far as computer crime goes.
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One of the problems investigators have encounterd when
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facing computer crime is just what I said,
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What laws have been violated, I know if a high-school hacker
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gains access to a database, Whats the worth?
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Thats what prosecuters look for. How much did he get?
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Can the penalty be equal or greater than what he obtained?
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Did the person really obtain anything?
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If he hurts you business or causes you to use a computer
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analyist to try to track him down?
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He's hurt the company but not made any monetary gain?
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Thats what they'll still be looking at until they finally put
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a few experts into an area, Computer experts like yourselves
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that say hey and become police officers or investigators
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and can attack the problem where it is, and it is a problem.
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Until they do that they'll have guys like me or other
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ex-policeman or accountants who will have to take the word of
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everybody else and basically hope and pray they guess
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correctly on how were gonna catch the persons doing it.
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I know theres gotta be all different kinds of ways to corrupt
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the system and one of the biggest problems, that movie, ahhh
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about the kid who got into..
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KNIGHTHACK- Wargames?
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FBI AGENT- Thats one of the biggest fears especially with the FBI
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going to computer files and computer finger-print systems.
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The fedreal government has all its pricing statistics and
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bids on computer also.
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So if you can imagine a 15 or 16 year old on his computer all
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night, imagine the professional criminal or the proffessional
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spy or whatever, he has his whole life, eight hours a day and
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he gets paid and if he wants to put in overtime thats a free
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shot. And if you have to figure, for every program written
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theres somebody who can figure it out, because someone had to
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put it in the computer.
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ANONYMOUS- No system is 100 per cent foolproof. if somone wants to work
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hard and long enough, he can get in any system.
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FBI AGENT- Yes, Right but what do you do when he gets in??
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 8-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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That Ends Part one of: THE IIRG MEETS THE FBI
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Be sure to get next months issue for the conclusion.
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| PHANTASY FEATURE ARTICLE TWO: |
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| THE |
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| INTERNATIONAL |
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| INFORMATION |
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| RETREIVAL |
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| GUILD |
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| What is it, and why should I support it |
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|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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The International Information Retreival Guild is a group of hackers,
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who are still bonded together in the earliest traditions of the art.
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We ask for No money, No contributions and the only thing we've ever
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charged for, are the costs of disks or tapes.
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We believe that the Guild should be supported by its actions and that
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if individuals are happy with our performance, voluntary contributions
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will follow. We are once again happy to join the mainstream hacking
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community and look forward to communicating with the world once more.
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The IIRG has been almost silent for three years now, but several members
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after reviewing present conditions have reactivated the group.
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We hope those of you who do remember us, and those of you who would like
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to come to know us and communicate with us will do so.
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Listed at the end of this issue will be several BBS systems where we
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we can be contacted and where PHANTASY will be distributed.
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Since this issue has been a little rushed, and we have not had much time
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to prepare for our new resurgence more information will be forthcoming
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in following issues.
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We hope to bring you all the hacking and phreaking news possible
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as well as programming, and insider reports.
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Most of our former contacts with several larger computer companies
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are still in place and we hope to be bringing you there inside
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dirt as to whats going on.
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So enjoy our forthcoming issues and we hope to be hearing from you...
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The IIRG-1990
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-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=End Page 9=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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PHANTASY NEWS......
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Well as we stated we've not had much time to prepare but here's
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what we do have for now...
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Date-Line Nov 6th through 15th
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Microsoft to hold free WINDOWS computing Seminars in the following
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cities on the following dates....
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Nov 6-Hartford, Ct.-9am to 11:30am-Ramada Inn, Meriden, 275 Research Pkwy
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Nov 8-Denver, CO-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
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Westin Hotel Tabor Center, 1672 Lawrence St.
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Nov 8-Dallas Texas-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
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Southland Center Hotel, 400 N. Olive St.
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Nov 13-Minneapolis, MN-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
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Radisson Hotel Metrodome, 615 Washington Ave S. E.
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Nov 15-Detroit, MI-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
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Westin Hotel Detroit, Renaissance Center
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Date-Line Nov 12th through January 9th, 1991
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VMS Systems Security V5 Seminars to be held at
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Nov 12-14 Denver, Co at the Digital Training Center
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212-702-4300
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December 3-5 San Diego, CA at the Humphreys 1/2 Moon Inn
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619-224-3411
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January 7-9 Boston MA at the Bay Back Hilton
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|
617-236-1100
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|
|
|
We hear the course fee is $995 and is 3 days long
|
|
One of our members was able to get in for free by
|
|
lurking around back in October and tells us the
|
|
Seminar offers an:
|
|
|
|
1.Overview of System Security
|
|
2.Security Threats discussion covering:
|
|
(User-based attacks, Operating system penetration, trap doors,
|
|
worms, viruses Trojans and Indirect Hacker attacks)
|
|
3.Type of Security Controls
|
|
4.Log in Controls
|
|
5.Files and Other Protection
|
|
|
|
|
|
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-END PAGE 10-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|
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|
|
|
|
|
6.Security Implemenatation Methods
|
|
7.Security Auditing
|
|
8.VAXcluster Security
|
|
|
|
A listing of DEC's DECnet-Vax Network security seminars will
|
|
be forthcoming in the next issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PHANTASY DISTRIBUTION SITES
|
|
|
|
This is the List of BBS's that will be carrying Phantasy as of
|
|
October 31, 1990...
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
The Rune Stone BBS
|
|
IIRG NODE #1 203-485-0088
|
|
1200/2400 Baud
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
Lightning Systems
|
|
1200/2400 Baud 414-363-4282
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
Prismatic Sphere
|
|
1200/2400 Baud 518-372-8045
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
Northeast Survival BBS
|
|
1200/2400 Baud 216-442-0879
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
MiniHost BBS
|
|
1200/2400 Baud 203-496-9183
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
If you would like your BBS to be a distributor of Phantasy
|
|
Call The Rune Stone and State so in Feedback to Sysop
|
|
|
|
May Odin Guide Your way....
|
|
The IIRG-10/90
|
|
|
|
|
|
End This Issue.............
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