textfiles/sex/EROTICA/V/virginsingles.txt

S5/Singles Club         26-Mar-91          Sb: #Is Virginity A Curse?
Fm: :: Maggie :: 70007,5153     To: You!
 
Dora's a professional woman, she's 29 years old, works full time, lives alone,
and she's a virgin. Only her closest friends know her "secret". At work she
plays up her occasional dates and smiles and winks back at the good natured
teasing about "getting some". Dora's embarrassed by her virginity. She feels
like she's the oldest virgin in the world and she spends hours trying to
figure out what's wrong with her, why no one seems interested. She's not
unattractive, she practices good hygiene, she's intelligent, literate, self
supporting. Why is she still alone?
 
  Is virginity a curse after a point? In this day and age is virginity making
a "come back"? Would you like to be your partners first sexual partner?
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Steve M. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Hi Maggie --
 
Where do you come up with your "case studies"? <g>
 
I guess your question does not involve how Dora handles herself.  Whether, for
example, she invites a second date with her occasional dates.  Men often are
shy, and often (even today!) won't persue unless there is some indication that
they should.  Does Dora invite 'em in for coffee after the movie?  Or
otherwise let them know that she'd like more than a handshake?
 
Now to your question.  The definitive work on this subject, to my mind, is
"Marjorie Morningstar" by Herman Wouk.  Given the right circumstances and the
proper amount of time (which varies by the individual), being the first with a
29-year-old virgin should be a challenge to be carefully handled and lovingly
and smoothly executed.  Please understand here that the challenge exists only
if it is apparent that both partners _want_ to make love with each other, but
that one just never has done so before, for whatever reason, and has suffered
the self-doubts you describe in Dora.  But, the process may take considerable
time and a lot of virtuoso caressing.
 
Answer to your other question.  I don't think virginity is making a comeback.
Recent surveys certainly indicate quite the opposite. Perhaps that is what is
bothering Dora?
 
For what it's worth, my experience so far indicates that it is best to treat
any new lover as if she is a virgin.  Make no assumptions!  My experience is
limited, of course, but wide enough that I feel comfortable with the
generalization.
 
Okay, Maggie -- ball is back in your court.
 
Hugs,
 
steve
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Steve M.
 
Steve,
 
  Thanks for responding here! Where do I come up with my case studies? Well, I
either take them from real life people I know, combinations of real people I
know, or I make them up. <grin>
 
  I've never read "Marjorie Morningstar", I guess I'll have to put it on my
list of books to read. <smile> I agree that any time two people become
sexually involved it should be handled carefully and lovingly but even more so
with a virgin since anyone's first sexual experience is probably going to be
remembered for the rest of their lives. For a woman there's the additional
concern of actual physical pain if the partner doesn't take time and care.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Steve M. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Hi Maggie --
 
I recommended Wouk's "Marjorie Morningstar" because he lovingly and very
skillfully describes the romance/seduction of Marjorie.  He manages to
describe a torrid love scene in words that will leave you breathless, though
the book (today) wouldn't be banned anywhere except Saudi Arabia.
 
It is a work of craft, of beautiful English, of polish, and of sensuality.
 
Put it at the top of your list to read, please.
 
I've enjoyed reading the responses to your "case study".  I hope that you and
other women who have read them understand the mental pain that men sometimes
go through just trying to get up the nerve to approach a woman for a dance,
let alone anything more.
 
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately <g>) the vast majority of men are not
Sam Malone, nor do they have his talent for bedding ladies. Actually, Dora
should find a Sam, maybe?
 
Hugs,
 
steve
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Steve M.
 
Steve,
 I'm glad that most men aren't like Sam Malone!  When a man comes on real
strong from the start I get suspicious.  I figure either he just wants sex or
he's gonna steal my wallet while I have my pants off.<g>
 
 
Fm: Mike D. To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Dear Carol,
 
Worst case:  he just wants sex and takes your wallet before you get your pants
back on!
 
-- Mike D.
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Mike D.
 
Hahahahahahaha!!
 
Fm: Justin To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Carol,
    Well, I would have to say that suspision is called for in most cases where
men are "coming on real strong"...waitaminute!  I think the stereotype really
is goofed up.  If I come on strong (which I never have, see my own messages in
this thread <g>), I will not be after the woman's wallet...I have little need
for such.  I will care for that woman and I will be expressing that in the
act...it probably will be strong as the feelings that will spawn that will
also be equally strong...would you be suspicious then <g>?
    I will admit that there have been cases where I have come on strong
without much of an emotional intent...I sure as hell don't run around bragging
machoistically to all my male friends about it (although I never have admitted
my virginity to any of them, either)...
    Even if I did want to, which of late, I have, well, the simple fact is
that there is no one there for me.  Oh, well.  So I wait.
 
                                            Justin
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Justin
 
Justin,
  I think we are talking about two different kinds of situations.  When a man
who I've never met before approaches me and comes on strong, that's when I get
suspicious.  In your message it sounds like you are talking about expressing
sexual desire toward a woman you already know.  In that case, it's perfectly
wonderful, in my opinion!
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Steve M.
 
Steve,
 
  Do Sam Malone's really exist in real life? Maybe they do and I just never
happened to meet one, I don't know. Anyway, thanks for the book
recommendation, I'll definately look for it. In fact I'm sure my mother must
have a copy of it around here somewhere.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Steve M. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Hey, Maggie --
 
Do Sam Malones really exist?  I do remember one.  He owned a bar in Groton,
Connecticut and had an apartment upstairs, with a discrete back entrance.
 
When _any_ attractive woman entered (regardless of escort), he would bide his
time, make an approach, pop the question, and 50 percent of the time disappear
with her for some time.  Meanwhile, her date/husband got to play pool or darts
until she (and he) returned.  We took bets on whether he would score.  He was
uncanny!
 
I am certain that if I tried using his lines I'd be beaten black and blue, and
sued as well.  But this fellow got away with it.  Still amazes me.
 
Hugs,
 
steve
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Steve M.
 
Steve,
 
  Perhaps the writers from Cheers are familiar with this gentleman <I'm
obviously using the term loosely (grin)> from Groton, Connecticut and he's the
guy that the Sam Malone charactor is based on. You never know, do ya? <grin>
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Steve M. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Hi Maggie --
 
Yeah, you never know.  The guy in Groton, however, never bragged or talked
about his conquests(?), and just grinned good-naturedly when one of the
regulars mentioned them.  If the Cheers writers know him, they had to add the
element of bragging to the Sam Malone character.  Also, the guy never said
anything we could hear to the woman.  Whatever he said was between them.  I
remember wondering what words he used!
 
At the time (mid-60's), it seemed to me that both he and the women involved
regarded the episodes as harmless diversions.  And, perhaps they were. The
woman I was seeing at the time was a customer in the establishment, and was
one of those who had rejected him with a laugh.  She said he took this in
stride and never made any more approaches.  She also said she preferred to
date men who could handle relationships that lasted more than an hour.
 
To get back on the thread here, I don't think the man in Groton ever made a
run on anyone who appeared virginal.  He was after women who knew about and
enjoyed having sex -- and he was pretty good at picking them out from the
crowd.
 
Here in Buffalo we're treated to Cheers reruns daily at 5:30 p.m.  Lotta good
human stuff is packed into those half-hour shows.  I think so, anyway.
 
Hugs,
 
steve
 
Fm: Justin To: :: Maggie ::
 
Hiya, Maggie,
    Sam Malones in real life?  Well, I would have to give you an unfortunate
yes.  Although some people DO just live for sex (in the relationship context,
at least)...sort of sad.  I would guess you were just fortunate enough not to
meet that type (or unfortunate, depending on your perspective...many people
would say unfortunate).
 
                                    Justin
 
Fm: Justin To: Steve M.
 
Steve,
    You seem to have some nice insights on the subject matter.  From your
plug, I will most definatly pick up *Marjorie Morningstar* when I get the
chance.  I like the way you said the words would leave us "breathless" <g>.
    You are not kidding when you speak of the "difficulty of approach".  It is
no easy thing...women are really touchy about how us men go about things these
days, to be honest.  Sexual contact seems to be more associated with intimicy
in some women, while others really don't care and will "take what they can
get".  It is difficult to typify a women unless you have spent some
time...therefore, these days, it would seem you have to know your partner.
 
                                                Justin
 
Fm: Justin To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie,
    Yeah, where DO you get this stuff?  Serious questions there.
    I could not say that virginity is a "curse".  Sometimes you can be proud
of it.  Sometimes it is very difficult!  I speak from the standpoint of being
that way myself, and being only almost 19 - this is where the pressure is. The
reason that I am the way I am is more by choice than by virtue of the lack of
"willing others".
    As for virignity making a comeback, well, I would say "no".  If anything,
the sexual revolution, where sexual interaction does not necessarily have to
be meaningful, or at least to the point that it was in the past.  We sort of
had an "emotional revolution" of sorts...where emotion was the prime power,
and that seems to be leaving and yet another sexual revolution is coming.
    As Steve said in his reply, the question does not consider how Dora
handles herself.  There is an inherent fear in virginity - and how in the
world can one handle it when there is no past reference to the situation? What
seems to happen is that forward going moves are not made, so nothing really
happens.  With all the reforms that society has gone through these days, men
can oftentimes be more than a little afraid of "making the move". The
traditions of the past where men asked the women for their hands in marriage,
were the initiators of sexual and/or or emotional relations, well, they're
just that - of the past.
    Why is she still alone?  Is she demanding too much of others or herself?
That's something that anyone in that situation would benefit from looking at.
    As for the last question, I would say for now that I would NOT want my
first partner to be virgin.  I say for now because being virgin myself, I
would like to have someone more experienced there to guide me through the
situation and be sensitive to the fact that I was...on the other hand, no one
could be more sensitive to being virgin than another virgin.
 
                                      Hugs, Justin
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Justin
 
Justin,
 
  Thanks for jumping in here! I wouldn't call virginity a curse either
personally, though having lost mine at a rather young age it's hard for me to
say how much of a virtue it is either. <smile> I think one's virginity is
probably easier to handle when it is by one's own choice rather than by a lack
of a willing partner.
 
  I guess I'm a little surprised that virginity isn't making some sort of come
back. What with AIDS and everything I know if I were still a virgin I would
give a lot of thought to the consequences before jumping into a sexual
relationship. Even not being a virgin, I give a lot of thought before jumping
into a sexual relationship.
 
  I think there are definately pros and cons to having one's first partner be
a virgin also. As you mentioned another virgin would certainly be sensitive to
the nervousness of the situation and the two of you could learn together how
to give each other pleasure and what works for each of you. On the other hand,
it might be hard figuring out what kinds of things *might* give pleasure if
neither of you had any experience giving or receiving sexual pleasure. A
dilemma. <grin>
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Justin To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie,
    Pleasure to jump in here!  I needed to comment about that...was a nice
thread to start with.
    Virginity, I guess, is a virtue in some regards.  Sometimes, though, it is
SO difficult to handle!  Sometimes I question whether my morals are merely a
defense against something that I am very afraid to do.  I think sometimes they
are and sometimes they are not.  It has been really difficult to handle in the
past few days - I have begun to wonder, seeing as I have had more chances now
- would it be healthy for me to just "go out and get laid"?  I see that as
socially questionable, yet, proper in the same social context! Therefore, I am
a little confused...
    Virgin as a first partner?  I don't know...personally if I loved the woman
it would not matter.  That is ultimatly important.
 
                                        Huggerz!, Justin
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Justin
 
Justin,
  If you feel like talking more about it, I'd be interested in hearing how
"virginity is a virtue in some regards".  I promise not to growl at you if I
disagree. <g>
 
Carol
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Justin
 
Justin,
 
  I guess if asked for an opinion I'd have to say that I don't care for the
"just go out and get laid" approach much. I think ultimately when you look
back you want to know that your first time was with someone you really cared
about, someone special. As you said in your last paragraph, loving one's
partner is what is ultimately important.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: John To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie,
   In the last few years many things have changed in the USA because if the
sexual revolution!! It use to be that if a man was interested in the women he
should approach her and ask her out! Most women still like it that way,
unfortunately because of the Women Libbers and STDs I feel most men are scared
to approach any women with out a written report on that particular girl for
fear of aids or being rejected!
 
Also,if Dora is a nice girl most guys assume that she is already taken and she
might have to make the first move in order to have a guy notice her. This has
become acceptable in these days and times,because guys have come to the
conclusion that all the good women are already taken! This may seem unfair but
I remember a saying amoung the ladies that all of the good men are taken
,married or gay.
The only hope for her is to let men that might be prospects know that she is
un-attached to anyone. A good flirt  technique may be all she needs to attract
a man or she should just become bold and ask a man she like out.We man really
don't mind (trust me we don't)
I was at a dance club here in Palm Beach last night and after an hour of
dancing alone a girl approached me and said I have been watching you!!! Would
you like to dance? I quickly said 'Yes' for I probably would of never asked
her to dance for fear. Dance Clubs use to be where men good pick up women. I
think now it is a place where women can pick up men. You notice they have
ladies night but never a guys night?
 
Well I hope somewhere in there I answered a question!!
 
Oh and as for wanting a virgin?? When I was young it was the things to takes a
girls virginity and place it on the mantle on a wall for all to see!! As I get
older I like more experienced women. I would still like a virgin every now and
then but once you take a person virginity a few responsiblities go along with
it.The losing of ones virginity is a very emotional time....
 
and if she loses her virginity it should be to someone that will hang around
or there could be some serious mental problem that may occur after waiting for
so long! I feel the older you get the more charised you virginity is. When we
are young we try to throw it away to the first person willing that is close to
attractive. As we get older we guard it closer if we haven't demolished it!
Tell her to take her time losing it! I had a good friend that lose her
virginity at 23 and regrets that she didn't save it to some one she loved
instead of the person she was infatuated with and that she *knew* would live
after claiming the prize.
 
Well That is all!
John
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: John
 
John,
 
  Thanks for replying here! Let me ask a question here since you mentioned the
fear of AIDS and of being rejected. Do you think men are more afraid of
contracting STD's than women are, vice versa, or about equal?
 
  Many women who *are* attached <men too> use a "good flirt technique" so I
think sometimes it's not possible to tell if someone is already attached and
just like to flirt or if they're actually attracted to you. What would you
consider to be a good flirt technique?
 
  I haven't read the second half of your message yet so I'll be replying to
the rest after I read it.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Charles S. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Well:
 
To use an almost-cliche, "virginity is a state of mind".  I have a male friend
who is still a virgin at age 33.  I think that the longer the situation
exists, the less likely it will change.  So, from that point of view,
virginity may be considered a "curse".
 
As has been pointed out in other replies, there IS an extra amount of
nervousness (and fear) for "the first time" for men OR women -- so, slower and
gentler is a fairly good idea for such an occasion.  (Although for the male's
first time, premature ejaculation is fairly common <smile>.)
 
"The first time" IS special, no matter what one does.  In our society, sex is
considered something VERY special (actually -- for the most part, in a
negative way (good old Saint Paul)), so the "loss" of virginity is considered
really important.  I guess that it is, as a "signal" -- as onset of menses is
an indication of transition from girl to woman (no such obvious point for a
man).
 
I would say that being a "non-virgin" should be a more desirable situation for
men OR women -- from the point of progressing to the state of a "sexually
active adult".  But, I can't say that I consider being a virgin or non-virgin
particularly indicative of anything except sexual status.  I would PREFER a
woman that I had sex with to be a non-virgin (less nervousness, more
experience) but I won't "hold it against her" either way -- hopefully, I will
love, and be attracted to, the person rather than her status.
 
Take care,
 
Charles S.
 
Fm: John To: Charles S.
 
Charles,
 
  I believe that losing once virginity has been assigned as the transformation
from adolesence to adult hood. Dad always say once you have sex that is when
you have become a man!! Girls peer themselves that they shall not become woman
until she has lost her virginity!!  Then they say don't lose it to fast!
 
Confusing
John
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Charles S.
 
Charles,
 
Thanks for your response! You say the longer a situation exists the less
likely it is to change, at what age do you think the chances of loosing your
virginity start to diminish?
 
  I agree that a person's first time is very special, very important as to how
that person will start out viewing sex. A good experience can start you out on
the right sexual footing while a bad first experience can mar sex for you for
a very long time.
 
  I also agree that the important thing is the person and how you feel about
them and not whether or not they've ever had sexual intercourse.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Charles S. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie:
 
I think that virginity becomes a "habit" after a while -- and, like all
habits, becomes hard to break.  I don't think that there is any particular age
for the chance to lose one's virginity to go down.
 
The problem with this "habit" is that it is a combination of social things --
how one feels about oneself, how one interacts with the appealing gender, the
orientation of one's religious indoctrination, ...
 
A man OR woman could always "easily" get out of their virginity by hiring a
professional -- but, for me, I don't think that that counts.  As I said,
"virginity is a state of mind" -- for me, at least.  If a man or woman has
been raped, or paid for sex, or ... -- anything other than enter into a
mutually voluntary (and desired) sexual relationship then, from my point of
view, they are still virgins.
 
Take care,
 
Charles S.
 
Fm: Ahmed A. To: Charles S.
 
I hope nobody minds if I butt into this thread...
 
I definitely agree that virginity is a state of mind, and like any other state
of mind can be turned on or off.  A "virginal state of mind", or habit can
insinuate itself into a person's behavior for any of a large number of
reasons, and once established can last for a long time.  It can, however, be
turned off.  The turning off involves approaching a very good friend and
having an honest and open conversation.  It is possible that a good friend may
suddenly seem extremely desirable when one is just coming of a good "virgining
out."  If the relationship can support the topic, it is a very good idea to
discuss desire with a close friend.  The hardest part is determining whether
or not the relationship can stand the weight!
 
Fm: Charles S. To: Ahmed A.
 
Ahmed:
 
There is no such thing as "butting into a thread".  That is what the open
threads are around for!  (If anyone expects to maintain a "private"
correspondance, that is what e-mail if for <smile>.)  Welcome to the threads.
 
Do you think that the difficulty of "turning off" the virginal outlook is
different between men and women?  I suspect that those who ARE long-term
virgins often have much difficulty thinking about -- much less TALKING about
-- subjects such as desire and sexual feelings.
 
Take care,
 
Charles S.
 
Fm: Ahmed A. To: Charles S.
 
Charles,
 
Thanks for the warm welcome.  I feel that everything is different between men
and women.  Even the physiology is different.  I would find it more difficult
to believe that a man had a hard time with a sexual thought than a woman.  It
seems that men just seem more naturally "gutter minded" than women are.  I
remember that when I was a virgin, one of the things that I most wanted to do
was to lose my virginity.  I always used to tell people that I experienced a
sexual thought every ten to fifteen seconds.  All of my male friends would
have agreed that ten to fifteen seconds is usually the interval.
 
Women are also conditioned to try to hold on to their virginity for a longer
period of time than men are. Men are expected to perform sexually, and Dad
usually gives his son that "go out there and knock 'em dead" pat on the back
when the son returns from a date, or is about to go out on one.  Women are
expect to maintain virtuous appearances.  She's a "slut" if she's not careful
about being a "good girl" and her reputation pretty much brands her for life.
The issue here becomes why the woman has been in "virgin mode" for so long.
Some long term virgins express themselves by flirting and teasing (sometimes
with a vengeance!), and others prefer to be emasculating to minimize the
amount of potential threat to their virginity...
 
Tough to say! Ahmad Abdel-wahed
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: Ahmad A.
 
Hi Ahmed and welcome to Singles Club! As Charles has already mentioned
everyone is always welcome to get involved in any ongoing threads which are of
interest to them or if there's something they'd particularly like to discuss
that they don't happen to see being covered currently they're most welcome to
start a discussion of their own. I hope you'll find many topics of interest to
you here in Singles Club and that we'll be hearing from you often in the
future.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Ahmed A. To: :: Maggie ::
 
Thanks!  I'm curious about what the significance of the :: is in your
username...  I saw something about it when I joined the forum, but because I'm
a TAPCIS user and didn't have my capture on, I didn't get to read what it
said...
 
Nice meeting you, Maggie! Ahmad Abdel-wahed
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie,
  I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it's like to be a virgin.   I think
virginity is overvalued and it isn't fair to judge someone on the basis of
whether or not they have ever had sex.  It's a random valuation. What about
those of us--and there are many--who didn't lose our virginity by choice?  Are
we to be considered a less valuable commodity in the social world?
  As for dear old Dora, if she were a friend of mine I would question her as
to why she has not wanted to have sex.  Are her fears based on shyness? Is her
fear based on some religious proscription drummed into her head long ago?  I'd
be interested in knowing what she has to say about this.
  I think that society's worship of virginity is based on the fantasy that the
ideal woman is pure in thought and deed, as naive as a child.  In my opinion,
the worship of virginity is anti-feminist.
 
Fm: Mike D. To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Dear Carol,
 
I agree that it isn't fair to judge someone based on their virginity status.
As you said, there are those who lost it against their will, those who have
kept it by choice, and those who have kept it against their will.  I was one
in that last group for the longest time.  I was quite shy and unable to
approach women.  I didn't want to be a virgin, but that's the way it goes for
shy guys like me.
 
I felt like I was judged because of it too.  In high school, all the guys had
girlfriends (except me).  In college, I'm sure the same was true, except that
I didn't socialize much with the guys or the gals.  After college, I had the
opportunity to work on an assembly line with a real Romeo.  He had the
traditional black-book and had a different girl every night, or so he said.
You can just imagine how awkward I felt working next to this guy and feeling
like the biggest failure in male history.  He asked about my girlfriend, I
said I didn't have one.  He asked about my last girlfriend, I said I never had
one.  He said "Don't tell me you're a virgin!!!" and I had to say yes, I was a
virgin.  I'm sure he got a good laugh out of it.
 
Looking back on it, I realize that the harshest judge of all was myself.  I
really put myself down for my virginity and I assumed everyone else did too.
Once we learn to accept ourselves for what we are, virginity really doesn't
matter.
 
-- Mike D.
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Mike D.
 
Mike,
  The guy who mocked you for not having had sex was a real creep.  His little
black book and bragging make me think that he was just very insecure about his
own masculinity and wanting to prove something.  Common wisdom says: he who
talks the most does the least.
  It sounds like you and I have had opposite problems with virginity
prejudice.
 
Fm: Mike D. To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Dear Carol,
 
Yes, the guy wasn't very kind to me, that's true.  But I was already feeling
bad about it and he just touched a sore spot.  You say that "He who talks the
most does the least."  But in his case, I'd say that "He who talks the most
does the most and he who talks the least has nothing to talk about."
 
Yes, I see that we look at virginity prejudice differently.  But that's
probably true for men and women in general.  Aren't men supposed to be studs
and women supposed to be virgins?  I don't know.  Maybe that's just my
interpretation of the traditional male point of view.
 
In your message, you said that you had problems with virginity prejudice. Who
inflicted this prejudice on you and how?
 
-- Mike D.
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Mike D.
 
Mike,
  Without getting into specifics, several times people have assumed that
because I was sexually active at an early age that means I'm an "easy lay" or
that I am preoccupied with sex.  Neither of those things is true.
 
Carol
 
Fm: Mike D. To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Dear Carol,
 
It sounds like you need to be very careful who you tell your sexual history to
in order that you may avoid prejudice like that.
 
-- Mike D.
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: Mike D.
 
Mike,
  To the contrary: If someone judges me unfavorably based on my sexual history
then they are not the kind of person I want in my life.  I am careful who I
confide in, but if I tell someone about my past and they have a negative
reaction then I won't associate with that person anymore.
  Eliminating the prejudice is more important to me than avoiding it.
 
Fm: :: Mike D. :: To: :: Carol H. ::
 
I thought about that when I wrote my earlier message.  But it looks like you
agree with me about being careful who you confide in.  Certainly if you feel
like you're dealing with someone you don't think you can trust with the
information, then that person is someone you don't want to get very close to
anyway.
 
-- Mike D.
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Carol,
 
  Thanks for responding! I agree that no one should be judged on the basis of
whether or not they've ever had sex. I would especially frown on anyone
looking down on someone for not being a virgin when that person had not lost
their virginity by choice.
 
  As for Dora, I don't think she's afraid to have sex, I think the situation
just hasn't arisen with "the right person". I think she really does want to
experience a sexual relationship but not with just anyone.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: :: Carol H. :: To: :: Maggie ::
 
Maggie,
 From what you say it sounds like Dora's lack of experience is partly based on
shyness--she has not met someone she cares enough about to have sex with. If
she were my friend I would advise her to develop a clear idea of who her ideal
partner would be.  It seems like once we know what kind of person we want it
is easier to find them.
 
Fm: :: Maggie :: To: :: Carol H. ::
 
Carol,
 
  Perhaps you're right, sometimes people who don't seem shy in their business
life or with members of their own sex become quite different in their personal
life and with members of the opposite sex. And I definately agree that having
a clear view of the kind of person we're looking for makes that person that
much easier to find.
 
                                        Hugs, Maggie
 
Fm: Steve R. To: Charles S.
 
Difficulty talking about sexual desire and feelings?  Nope.  Just haven't
found the "right" person in the last 20 years.  Virginity doesn't have to be a
curse (though sometimes even I admit I wish I wasn't one but then I also feel
strongly about waiting for the right person).  Just wanted to share my 2~
worth.  Steve
 
Fm: Charles S. To: Steve R.
 
Steve:
 
There are approximately 150 million American women out there (around 30
million single?).  What would you say that the difficulties in finding the
"right" person are for you?  Do you have difficulty finding social opportunity
to MEET single women?  Would you consider your "requirements" for such a
person to be more stringent than for many people?
 
Take care,
 
Charles S.
 
Fm: Steve R. To: Charles S.
 
Well Charles - so full of so many questions at once - but I'll try to answer
them.  It seems with a good majority of the women meeting them is no problem
since they are everywhere (especially the bars at night).  The problem is in
finding "avaiable" women to date.  I guess I fear the "rejection" speech -
"Sorry, I already have a boyfriend back home."  I don't think my
"requirements" are stringent.
 
Steve
 
Fm: Charles S. To: Steve R.
 
Steve:
 
So, it seems to be a difficulty in approaching women romantically -- afraid of
"rejection", or lack of "availability"?  I admit to being very familiar with
that situation -- but I'm getting better able to approach women (SLOWLY
<smile>).
 
Personally, I still have some trouble meeting women.  Admittedly, part of that
"problem" is that of feeling reluctant to approach a woman that I do not know
at all.  As you point out, the women do exist -- but, how to approach them in
a respectful, but energetic, manner?
 
Good luck and take care,
 
Charles S.