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430 lines
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From emv@msen.com Ukn Jan 27 02:28:24 1993
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To: billy@cic.net, pauls@umich.edu
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Subject: (fwd) INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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Newsgroups: alt.zines
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Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 02:27:27 EST
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From: Edward Vielmetti <emv@msen.com>
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Status: RO
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Newsgroups: alt.zines
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Path: nigel.msen.com!hela.iti.org!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!fuug!anon
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From: an3191@anon.penet.fi
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Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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Fcc: +answers
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Message-ID: <1993Jan23.050116.27097@fuug.fi>
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:43:37 GMT
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Forwarded message:
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>From wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu Wed Jan 20 04:58:54 1993
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Message-Id: <9301190613.AA11432@lambada.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
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Fcc: +answers
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To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 1:13:03 EST
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From: Mitchell Porter <wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu>
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Cc: autopia@cactus.org
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INTERZINE #1 --- JAGWIRE X (jagwire@wixer.cactus.org)
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Interzine is an irregular e-zine devoted to "interviews in cyberspace".
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It may be copied and distributed freely.
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This is a chat via IRC with Jagwire X, who recently created
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the AUtopia mailing list (send subscription requests to
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autopia-request@wixer.cactus.org) to discuss the idea of an
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autonomous "New Edge" colony on an ocean-going vessel. He can also be
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reached at the CyberSpace Institute BBS @ +1.512.469.0447.
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/who #AUtopia
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Channel Nickname S User@Host (Name)
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#AUtopia Velax H daemon@BRADENVILLE.ANDREW.CMU.EDU
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(bblk09.edn.gu.edu.au)
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#AUtopia Jagwire X G@ anonymous@mickey.cc.utexas.edu (anonymous)
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Velax > Jagwire? this is mitch
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Jagwire X > Hey.
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Velax > I'm just sending you mail but I guess I can abort that
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Velax > Where are you physically?
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Jagwire X > Austin, Texas, USA
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Jagwire X > And you?
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Velax > A computer lab, Griffith University, MT Gravatt campus,
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
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Jagwire X > What time is it? 6.00am or so?
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Velax > about 10 or 11 am here, I think..
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Velax > So you're in someone's apartment.. your own?.. on a terminal
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over a modem, linked to a unix system..
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Jagwire X > My apartment. Connect to the University of Texas via. my
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modem.
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Velax > Right.. I am always curious about the nature of a person's
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access to the net, since I suspect that different people "see"
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it in very different ways
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Jagwire X > Are we interviewing, yet?
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Velax > :) good question
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Velax > I've got "capture" running
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Velax > So I guess this is "raw material" at the very least
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Jagwire X > Cool... well I'm ready whenever you are. Yeah. I interviewed
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Andy Hawks this way (more or less).
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Velax > The first thing I always wanted to ask you, was: what *is* a
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jagwire?
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Jagwire X > Well, it cam about this way: I was driving a rental car while
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tripping on acid and I had been reading a bunch of c-punk lit
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at the time and I saw a huge billboard for a jaguar (the car).
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And I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I had
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been thinking about aliases at the time, and I have always had
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an affinity for cats. So I sort of combined, jaguar/hardwired
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into a single polychromatic word.
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Velax > aha..
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Velax > I had thought maybe a "jagwire" was some sort of "phreaker's
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phriend", like a "plumber's helper".. some sort of wire you
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stick in a machine to get it to do something
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Jagwire X > Hey there's an idea. Maybe I'll invent something like that.
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Velax > okay, so that's the jagwire part.. what about the "X"? is that
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a Malcolm X reference? or something more generic?
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Jagwire X > Oh, oh yeah... also jag <which means more or less to be
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wired>. The X is sort of an exclamation. Say, to make it more
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severe.
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Velax > hmm.. I thought it was meant to connote anonymity, like you had
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to keep an alias in order to hide yourself from the forces of
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law 'n order..I was just curious because both you and Blade X
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have that extra 'x' on the end I thought it might be a .. not a
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common thing, not a fashionable thing, but still a symbol
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understood by a certain group of people, anyhow, aliases aren't
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tremendously important.
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Jagwire X > Yeah, Blade X got it from me and Menken X (who was cosysop on
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my BBS for a long time). To me and Menken X it is symbol, of
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what? Probably cynicism and craziness.
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Velax > heh
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Velax > Your bbs - that was where you interviewed Andy Hawks?
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Jagwire X > Right, yeah. He graciously called it long distance.
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Velax > Gee, that must have been expensive
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Jagwire X > Probably around $15 American.
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Velax > So you run a bbs, and you're also creator of the whole AUtopia
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enterprise, which I plan to get to in a moment; do you have any
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other "enterprises"?
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Jagwire X > Um... well, I am going to try once again to publish my 'zine
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(SunDog). My girlfriend just bought a photocopier so... it
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will be easier. Other than that I would say just general
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wreaking havoc on cyberspace... blah blah blah.
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Velax > SunDog, yeah.. I had that word written down somewhere, as
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something to ask about.. what would distinguish your zine from
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the other underground / new edge zines that are already out
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there? would it have a net incarnation as well as a hard copy
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one, the way scream baby is the net form of screamin' me-me?
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Jagwire X > Yeah, it would be published both hardcopy and on the net. And
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it will be small, more like rantings from the bowels of
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cyberspace. Scream Baby is the net form of Scream N *me*mes
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which is also electronic but quarterly (I think, or at least it
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was)
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Velax > "rantings from the bowels of cyberspace".. *grin*
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Jagwire X > SunDog will probably be written by Menken X and I only.
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Velax > Is there a particular view or philosophy you would try to
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promote?
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Jagwire X > Hmm... yeah, I guess there is. I am trying to promote more
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substance to the form that is developing. Seems to me that the
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whole New Edge movement lacks any real direction. That's what
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the whole AUtopia thing is about, really.
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Velax > aha, okay
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Velax > Well then, what is *your* philosophy? what do you think it's
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all about? you said in the Andy Hawks interview you had your
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life turned upside down by Wilson and Leary at age 14, or
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something like that..
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Jagwire X > Yeah, Wilson and Leary pretty much mangled my soft and mushy
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grey matter.
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Velax > heh
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Velax > AUtopia certainly sounds like a goal in which just about the
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whole 'new edge' could participate
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Jagwire X > As for AUtopia I certainly hope so. I haven't really done much
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with it since Thanksgiving, but I now am getting some free
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time.
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Velax > Where did the idea of an offshore new-edge colony come from?
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Hagbard Celine? "Islands in the Net"?
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Jagwire X > Well, actually. No. It may have lodged itself in there
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sometime on the past. What really brought it on was a
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discussion, similar to this, about the New Edge.
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Velax > I guess you just have to look at the world around you and ask,
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"where can you *go*, physically, and be free?" and all the land
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is taken up by the nation-states, so that leaves space, or the
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sea..
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Jagwire X > Right, exactly. Where can I go to be free to pursue a life
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without being policed by immature children playing with guns.
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Velax > And you were saying..? that there was no direction, or no
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common goal? [in that discussion, that is]
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Jagwire X > In that discussion. Yeah, there seems to be a lack of 'hard'
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ideas to work toward, or even 'soft' ideas for that matter.
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Velax > Okay, so assuming that at some point in the future theres no
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kids with guns around to bother the would-be new-edge
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explorers.. what sort of directions are you interested in?
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in the last AUtopia draft I saw you had everything from
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nanotech to nootropics as topics of research
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Jagwire X > Well, yeah, I am interested in technology and how it can be
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used to improve the human condition. I am a big fan of
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Buckminster Fuller. I agree with him that all life is
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technology, and with the possibilities of nanotech and
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geneering it will be possible..to actually control the
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technology of life. I just want to live long enough for this
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to be able to happen. Wilson and Leary convinced me (at 14)
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that I wanted to live forever (more or less, or at least until
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I get bored).
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Velax > Have you ever read fm2030 [fm esfandiary?] are you on the
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extropians list?
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Jagwire X > I haven't read that. I am on the Extropian essay list.
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Velax > But not the extropian general discussion list. Very high
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traffic, there.
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Velax > esfandiary is another "transhumanist" philosopher
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Velax > So.. ideally, AUtopia could be a spawning ground for the
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technologies and ways of life in the fuller-wilson-leary sort
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of future, where the limits on the human condition are those of
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imagination rather than biology?
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Jagwire X > Yeah, exactly. A mecca for creation. A veritable cauldron of
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technological fertility.
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Velax > Well, I hope it happens. So far there's a mailing list and an
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irc channel..
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Jagwire X > Yeah, me too. The mailing list is somewhat slow these days,
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but that will change soon, I hope.
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Velax > How do things look to you as far as the logistics
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of actually acquiring an old destroyer, or something like that,
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& fitting it out with all the communications tech, etc, that
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you're after?
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Jagwire X > Well, right now they look bleak. I am certain that will
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change, I need to spend sometime coordinating with people and
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see what's out there. Right now, we are still mulling over the
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possibilities. There should be another FAQ out any time now
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with more...ideas, possibilities and philosophy attached to it.
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Velax > Version 4.0?
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Jagwire X > Yeah. 4.0 Maybe even some sketches in GIF format will be
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available soon too.
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Velax > Have you contacted Pat Salsbury about his "Oceana" proposal at
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all? I seem to recall that going out over exi-essay.
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Jagwire X > Actually, I was contacted. I have yet to get back to him, but
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I am anticipating a mutual exchange of information.
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Velax > Yeah.. I only skimmed his proposal, but it was full of the
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countercultural technosocial ideas, like Wilson's "trade aids"
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also at one time on the main extropians list there was a thread
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about "ocean colonization" but I don't know what came of that.
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you could ask someone who's a subscriber to check their
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archives for that thread.
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Jagwire X > It looks more thought out than mine, I'd say. But soon I think
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we will be on par. Yeah, I been meaning to subscribe to it
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myself
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Velax > hmm. I think you had more details about what might be going on,
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on board.
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Velax > Did you know that R A Wilson in Cosmic Trigger II says that
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when he was a young anarchist he was interested in setting up
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anarchist colonies in international waters? maybe you should
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contact *him* too & see if he has any references or contacts or
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ideas that could be relevant.
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Jagwire X > Cool, I haven't read Cosmic Trigger II yet.
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Velax > The book's actually dedicated to Buckminster Fuller
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Jagwire X > Heh, cool, not surprising though.
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Velax > So what else specifically does the AUtopia project need now?
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apart from subscribers to the mailing list.
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Jagwire X > People, who are interested in working on it, gathering info,
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coordinating various aspects. Mostly organizational stuff at
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this point. Later it will need people (the same ones
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hopefully) who want to do physical work.
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Velax > So you'd hope to soon reach the point where there is
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effectively a specialization amongst the interested people? I
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mean, one looking at legal stuff, another at onboard comm tech,
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and so on..
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Jagwire X > Yeah, I'd like to see different working groups that can get
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down to the nitty gritty of various aspects of the project.
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Once that happens things will get rolling.
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Velax > The previous AUtopia "position papers" or drafts describing the
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concept had a neat listing of relevant topics & so on, would
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that be how the working groups would come about? if someone
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says, 'okay, I'll address section 3a..' and so on..
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Jagwire X > In a way. Yeah. In the next version I should, hopefully, have
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it broken up into different sections (for each working group).
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So, yeah.
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Velax > It seems to me that a really vital thing now is coming up with
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at least a hypothetical scenario whereby an actual
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geographic location is found and actual hardware is procured.
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otherwise it will remain just a fantasy. in this regard,
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I seem to recall that future culture carried some discussion of
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where you might buy old destroyers from [was it eastern
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European countries selling off their navies?], and the
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extropians thread on ocean colonization discussed whereabouts
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in international waters you might have the least chance of
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being harassed.. I think one of the optimum locations was off
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some small southeast Asian nation.
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Jagwire X > Yeah. Ideally, I would like to see a ship that can actually
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move about. If it was stationary I would think that a
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southeast Asian nation would be a suitable locale.
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Velax > hmm.. the question of mobility is related to the question of
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size, basically, I think. you need to know what sort of vessels
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are available - submarines? destroyers? crude oil carriers? etc
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etc. heh just had an idea. maybe you could learn from L Ron
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Hubbard's "sea org", he had a private flotilla of yachts or
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something like that.
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Jagwire X > Getting the hardware is going to be the most difficult part.
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And it will require some preparation on the part of the people
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involved. It will take some time to accomplish (at best).
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Even so if it does not come to fruition, it still is an
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excellent... mental exercise for the parties involved.
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Velax > hmm. if, say, AUtopia foundered in its present form, for one
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reason or another, then the thought which had gone into the
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social and technical aspects might prove useful to future
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attempts to design new edge communities, but.. nonetheless
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there are a lot of issues specifically relating to the idea of
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a new-edge colony *at sea*. and they are the most difficult
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ones, as far as actually achieving this goes.
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Jagwire X > True.
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Velax > but it's hard to see where else a new-edge colony could go, in
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the near future. I used to think about having some sort of
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research community in the Australian outback, but most of that
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land is either barren or belongs to mineral companies or
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aboriginal tribes. Applies to the American desert.
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Velax > I was musing about other possible locations.. the point I was
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getting around to was that at sea seems to be the best possible
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location for a generic new-edge colony at present. the only
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other place I can imagine would be in a ghetto somewhere, or
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maybe sibe
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Jagwire X > Well, in orbit would be nice, but unlikely. I certainly
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wouldn't mind living in space.
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Velax > Siberia that is.. since the Russian government wants to develop
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its eastern regions & wants foreign investment too, or
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something like that well, I presume that the new edge will get
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into orbit eventually, but the AUtopia timescale seems to be
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more like late 90's early 21st century.
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Jagwire X > Somehow I don't think they would want us there. Yeah, the
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ocean is the most likely candidate.
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Velax > All this relates back to what you said about, even if AUtopia
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doesn't come to fruition anything that gets thrashed out here
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can still help future enterprises like this..
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Velax > The point is that if it's ever going to happen at all,
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anywhere, it looks as though it will have to start at sea.
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Jagwire X > Yeop.
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Velax > So even the specifically "nautical" considerations that will be
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discussed on AUtopia will be of future relevance, not just the
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generic contemplation of new-edge autonomous communities.
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Velax > [does that make sense?]
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Jagwire X > Yeah, I think so. Like even for non New Edge ocean
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colonization.
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Velax > Another thing that has occured to me. on leri-l someone talked
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once about setting up a bot on irc channel #leri and automating
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a process whereby all conversation on the channel would get
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sent to the mailing list. maybe you could do that with AUtopia
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too. [concerning non New Edge ocean col.] yes, that too. do you
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know how often people visit #AUtopia?
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Jagwire X > Nope. I have no idea. I am often not around as I am still
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await the full INTERnet connection at my base of operations.
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Velax > Is that wixer.cactus.org?
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Jagwire X > Yeah. That's the place. Home of AUtopia, Scream Baby and
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FringeWare.
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Velax > Yeah, I'm very curious about it. does you or Blade X or Paco
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work for wixer or cactus or whatever organization this is?
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Jagwire X > Blade X, Pacoid and I are the big three freaks there. No none
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of us do. It's run by George Wenzel and frankly I don't know
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much about it. 'Better, Faster and Cheaper' is their motto (I
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think), but don't quote me on that.
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Velax > heh, ok
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Velax > I remember on fut-cult a while back there was a discussion
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about which city is more cyberpunkish or new-edgey, and I
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remember someone saying that Austin was one of the best places
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to be, to be connected to the techno-underground
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Jagwire X > Yeah, it definitely is. The amount of New Edge per capita has
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got to be higher than anywhere else. Plus there's a whole lot
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of high-tech industry here. The University of Texas, more
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BBS's than you can shake a stick at. Members of the Legion of
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Doom. A local chapter of EFF. Plenty of Raves (if your into
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that). Tons of live music. etc. etc. etc.
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Velax > So you have high-tech industry [computers? genetics?
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aerospace?] connected to utexas, plus drugs, raves, mind
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machines, hackers..
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Jagwire X > Plus it's has some of the strictest environmental initiatives
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in the US, clean air, and it's a sprawl even (size wise if not
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population). High-tech industry includes all that you
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mentioned.
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Velax > how organized is the techno-undeground, do you think? I guess
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this relates to what you were saying before, about the lack of
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overarching visions. it seems to me that the most organized
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people would be groups like LOD. at the level of the new edge
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as a whole, there's no organization, there's only zines and
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other info outlets like the mailing lists which provide an
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overview of what exists,. but don't actually coordinate
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anything.
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Jagwire X > How organized. Here it seems to be more organized than most
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places. EFF-Austin is a contributor to that.
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Velax > Isn't the EFF basically a civil rights watchdog? officially? I
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mean, I imagine that at CyberDawg get-togethers, or whatever
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they're called, people might talk about all sorts of other
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things, but I'm sure the EFF charter [eg] doesn't say 'we're
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here to put the nootropics researchers, in touch with the
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computer underground, in touch with..'
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Jagwire X > Yeah, that's right. The CyberDawgs present an opportunity for
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the people to meet face2face. What they do after that is up to
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them.
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Velax > hmm. on the topic of the eff, while you were gone I started
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checking my email and there's a whole heap of messages with
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subject lines like 'the EFF is over' and 'shakeup at the eff'.
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do you know what this is about.
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Jagwire X > Not really. There was a post about EFF National's changes.
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The rest was all just opinions and hype. Apparently some people
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are not pleased with what they are doing. Me I don't have much
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of an opinion about it.
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Velax > Well, just viewing one long message, which I think is the post
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about the national changes, it says something about not forming
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local chapters. where would that leave EFF-Austin, any idea?
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Jagwire X > Well, EFF-Austin is an incorporated entity unto itself. It is
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not actually a subdivision of EFF-National.
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Velax > okay, so this would really appear to be just an organizational
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change, not a change of goals or anything. however, to relate
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this back to what I was saying before, the EFF is an
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organization which concentrates on the future of
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|
the net, or cyberspace, & in particular on civil liberties in
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|
cyberspace. That's only part of the new edge. for example,
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|
nanotech, nootropics & other forms of R&D on the one hand, &
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|
raves, mudding & other on-line _culture_ on the other, are part
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|
of it too. what I was trying to get at is that there is nothing
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|
concerned with the whole new edge, as far as I can see, apart
|
|
from zines like Mondo 2000 etc.
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|
Jagwire X > Yes. That's right. As far as I know it does not promote any
|
|
of the other aspects of the New Edge. Yeah, in the sense that
|
|
any magazine is a discussion of a subject. I would say that
|
|
M2k and bOING-bOING do quite a good job of blending various
|
|
aspects together.
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|
Velax > And they are more reporting on the scene rather than trying to
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|
involve it all in some common enterprise, as AUtopia would.
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|
So there would seem to be a need for 2 things, that I can think
|
|
of: i] a group with an "EFF-like" approach to the whole issue
|
|
of technoculture, and ii] trying to create the space - a "TAZ"
|
|
- where new edge activities can be pursued. this is where
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|
AUtopia fits in, I guess.
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Jagwire X > You got it.
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Velax > I've never seen bOING bOING here in oz, unfortunately
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Jagwire X > I am probably going to have to go for good RSN.
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Velax > Yeah, I guess it might be about time. it must be about midnight
|
|
there by now?
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Jagwire X > No, 8:30 pm. I just have some stuff I have to do b4 it get's
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|
late. I've enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity!
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|
Velax > Yes, its bee fun & quite interesting. Maybe someday I'll be
|
|
able to interview you at jagwire@autopia.com
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Jagwire X > Heh. Hopefully! Feel free to e-mail me if you have any further
|
|
questions. BCNUL8R
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Velax > Sure. well, I'll probably see you on future culture, AUtopia or
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|
leri, anyhow. Ok, see you..
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