402 lines
17 KiB
Plaintext
402 lines
17 KiB
Plaintext
AppleLink
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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June 13, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time
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Topic: Operating Systems
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Welcome to the Apple II Development forum. Tonight's topic is Apple
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II operating systems. We will be using
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PROTOCOL starting now. This means if you wish to ask a question,
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you must enter '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to comment
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on the question being asked, you must enter a '!' on a line by
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itself. I will call you each in turn to speak. Okay, let's get the
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queue filled :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach.
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Coach101 Any news on the availability of 5.0 and new APW?
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IIGS MAN My question!
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AFL Dyfet GA Josh.
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JoshThomps Coach, by luck, I happen to have both of those...
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IIGS MAN 5.0!!!!!
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AFL Dyfet I believe he meant full public availability :).
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Coach101 Where-o-where did they come from?
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Coach101 Right!
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IIGS MAN Where are they!
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AFL Dyfet GA Jim.
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JimLaz Dealer do not have 5.0 yet.
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JimLaz ^s
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IIGS MAN Upload it!!!!!
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JoshThomps I can't...it's not public and I respect that status.
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JimLaz Josh, you have the beta?
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IIGS MAN when is it going to be public,dyphet?
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AFL Dyfet I don't believe it will be released for licensing till at least
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July 1st...when
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AFL Dyfet it is, it will be up on here.
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IIGS MAN @#$&%*^%^$&^$%^%&
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MarcSSSi !
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AFL Dyfet GA Marc.
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MarcSSSi The beta 5.0 sw is pretty awsome (did I say that?) bu the function
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of beta
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IIGS MAN upload a demo!
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MarcSSSi testing is to nail the bugs... My HD is somewhat worse for the
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wear.
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AFL Dyfet One cannot demo an OS easily :). Also, the current beta release
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is somewhat
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AFL Dyfet hard on HD's. Take that as meaning file crashes...all in all, it
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would be
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AFL Dyfet much better to wait for the final release version. For those of
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us that need
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AFL Dyfet to get products out under 5.0 in it's current state, that has been
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a bit of
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AFL Dyfet a challenge :).
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Robin Hewd What is 5.0 current state?
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AFL Marty (Give it a rest GSMAN)
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AFL Dyfet At this point, our over-worked Apple people here have made it
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clear it is
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AFL Dyfet almost ready to go out. A little patience, and perhaps they can
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get the job
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AFL Dyfet done and finally get to tahieti for a well deserved vacation :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Josh.
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JoshThomps Well, I just thought I'd say I noticed 5.0 allows devices to be
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renamed...
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IIGS MAN any new functions of system disk 5.0
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Robin Hewd Is this the operating system of the future GS or can't u
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comment?
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
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Dave Lyons IIGS MAN, there will be *inches* of documentation explaining the
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new features
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Dave Lyons of System Disk 5.0 for programmers, and there are gobs of
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user-visible
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Dave Lyons features, too. See the Let's Discuss board here in ADV for lots
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of
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Dave Lyons discussion. ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any other comments?
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AFL Dyfet GA Kevin.
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KevinSSSi I think the Apple Group deserves ALOT of praise, clapping, etc.
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They did
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Robin Hewd Is 5.0 much faster than 4.0 in disk speed?
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KevinSSSi one heck of a job!
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KevinSSSi GA
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Dave Lyons !
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AE JohnS (I'm applauding!)
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AE PhilM (me too!)
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AFA Parik ()() *praise* *praise* *clap* *clap*
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AFL Dyfet Yes, Robin, it is. And please, OBSERVE PROTOCOL :). GA Dave.
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Robin Hewd yeh yeh yeh!!!
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JimLaz (clap clap)
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Dave Lyons Yes, 5.0 is much faster than 4.0 in disk speed. ga
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Robin Hewd (what does GA Dave mean??? haven't been on AppleLink long)
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AFL Dyfet It's much faster in MANY ways, actually. Desktop applications run
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faster on
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AFL Dyfet a GS under 5.0 than they do under 4.0 with a Transwarp :).
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AFL Dyfet (At least for screen I/O, opening windows, etc).
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Robin Hewd I heard the Quickdraw tool and others are faster as well, true?
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JoshThomps !
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AFL Dyfet Yes, Robin, Qucikdraw is very much enhanced. GA Josh.
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JoshThomps 5.0 under a TransWarp GS isn't too shabby either! :)
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AE JohnS :-)
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AE PhilM :)
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AFL Dyfet True, Josh :). Okay, I believe the next question is from Uloth.
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GA.
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Ulothrix Is 5.0 compact enough for 2 drive use or should an HD be used?
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AFL Dyfet GA MAtt.
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Matt DTS 5.0 easily fits on two drives. It's when you add applications
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that you run into problems.
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Matt DTS :-)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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Ulothrix is disk IO increased as well
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Matt DTS The System Software takes up significantly more room on the disk,
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but there's a lot of new things.
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Matt DTS Those without AppleShare or AppleTalk can remove a lot of
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network-related files and save space.
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Robin Hewd ?
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Matt DTS However, it's still a little bigger due to more OS files and new
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tools. GA.
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Ulothrix Thanks
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AFL Dyfet To put it simply, EVERYTHING is faster EXCEPT the CPU :).
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from Parik. GA Parik.
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Coach101 ?
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AFA Parik Is G. Little updating his book for GS/OS v5.0? And will A-Wesley
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be updating
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AFA Parik their line of books in the near future? ga
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Robin Hewd Does it take longer to load the finder?
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AFL Dyfet Robin, if you wish to comment, please use PROTOCOL. GA Matt.
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AFL Marty (-?)
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Matt DTS I know Gary and an associate to be working on *A* book that's
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largely 5.0 based. I do not know...
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Matt DTS ...if it is OS-related or "Exploring the Apple IIgs" type. AW
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doesn't update the official
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Matt DTS manuals, Apple does, and we are releasing 5.0 documentation this
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summer through APDA.
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Matt DTS (Robin: Protocol means type "?" with a question and "!" with a
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comment, and don't talk until the
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Matt DTS forum leader tells you to with "GA", which means "Go ahead.")
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(I'm done - GA)
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JimLaz I hope that the reason for the final GS/OS books being so slow to
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the market is
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JimLaz because they need to add 5.0 info.
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JimLaz ga
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Matt DTS Anyone waiting for AW to put out GS/OS books to buy them is
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leading a sheltered life. Period.
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
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Dave Lyons "The final" books?? Who says the system *ever* has to stop
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Dave Lyons evolving?
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Dave Lyons I think it's a bit early to call any 5.0-related books "slow" in
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getting
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JimLaz I mean the final printing for the first volume.
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Dave Lyons to market, since the software isn't even released yet. ga
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JimLaz You know hard back...not beta form.
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AFL Dyfet Very true, Dave :). I believe the next question is from Phil. GA
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Phil.
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AE PhilM I would imagine that some of the speed improvements that we're
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made in System
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AE PhilM 5.0 are applicable to the Mac system software. Has anyone from
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the Mac team
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AE PhilM taken a look at some of the magic you did. My SE seem a bit
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sluggish compared
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AE PhilM to System 5.0 and TWGS.
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Coach101 :)
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AFL Dyfet Some of the magic done would make the Mac a LOT harder to adapt to
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different
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AE PhilM done
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AFL Dyfet display devices, I would suspect. GA Jim.
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JimLaz Phil, I heard that the speed improvement came from taking
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advantage of the way
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JimLaz the 65816 and the GS work, handle memory, ect.
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AE PhilM The way the front window is handled is what I heard, along with
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fast font and
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JimLaz Not really something that could be done on the Mac the same.
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Dave Lyons !
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AE PhilM of course the disk drivers...but that is pretty much GS related.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Matt now has the floor. GA Matt.
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JimLaz ga
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Matt DTS Don't lose any sleep thinking that the Mac and II groups don't
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share technology where appropriate.
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Matt DTS :) <GA>
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AFL Dyfet Yes, you might get contamited with Mac features :). Ga Dave.
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Dave Lyons QuickDraw speed improvements came from doing a lot of extra work
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to handle
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Dave Lyons common special cases like drawing when all clipping regions are
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rectangular;
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Dave Lyons I don't know whether QuickDraw on the Macintosh already
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incorporates these
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AE PhilM Yes, but thoes sort of things can also be applied to the Mac,
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Dave.
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Dave Lyons special cases or not. More System Disk 5.0 speed comes from
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ExpressLoad
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Dave Lyons (a special format for efficient loading of OMF files) and
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ScatterRead in the
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NoriM Hi
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Dave Lyons AppleDisk 3.5 driver (reads blocks as they come around). I don't
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think the
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AE PhilM I know about expressload, but that has little to do with snapping
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windows in
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AE PhilM the finder.
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Dave Lyons Macintosh 3.5 driver currently does that, but I could be wrong.
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ga
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AE PhilM Thank you.
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AFL Dyfet Any further comments?
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AFL Dyfet GA Joe.
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JSchober Is ExpressLoad merely a pre-linked relocation directory, or
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something more
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JSchober complex?
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AFL Dyfet That was a question you snuck in there, Joe :).
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JSchober (It was a question on the topic... :P :)
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Matt DTS !
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JimLaz Foul! Ten yard penalty!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Matt. GA.
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Matt DTS More complex. Docs probably coming in a Tech Note in September
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(since it's a biggie, but only applies
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Matt DTS to those writing their own linkers. Application writers can just
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use utilities to handle it.) GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I see that the next question is from Robin. GA Robin.
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Robin Hewd Will the new faster quickdraw make existing animation run
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faster???
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AFL Dyfet Most applications that call and use Quickdraw in a legal manner
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will see at
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AFL Dyfet least some improvement, and in some cases significent improvement.
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Programs
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AFA Gary J Q = Robin, Marty, Coach, JimLaz
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AFL Dyfet that directly access screen memory or do their own thing will not,
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of course,
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AFL Dyfet notice any difference. Anyone else wish to comment?
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe the next question is from Coach. GA Coach.
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Coach101 Oops, wasn't there someone in front of me.... Marty for
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instance
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Marty I'm going to ask a question that may border on heresy...
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AFL Dyfet Oh. Yes, we skipped poor Marty. Okay, the floor has been yielded
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to Marty.
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AFL Marty I've seen system 5.0 run and it is indeed impressive...
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AFL Marty It is amazing what can be accomplished by just rewriting
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software...
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AFL Marty which makes me wonder just how efficiently the code for system
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4.0...
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AFL Marty was written in the first place. Obviously, poorly written code in
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what
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AFL Marty amounts to the first release of _the_ system disk for the GS...
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Coach101 !
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JimLaz !
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AFL Marty would make system 5.0 look like a real winner. Comments?
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AFL Dyfet GA Uloth.
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Ulothrix yes I wonder if Apple is holding back for some reason
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Ulothrix ga
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AFL Dyfet I believe the floor now belongs to Matt, who has the honour of 4.0
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to uphold :)
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Matt DTS You guys can spend your time worrying about this if you want.
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I'll worry about what comes for 5.1.
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Matt DTS There's a difference between straightforward, solid code and
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optimized, solid code. One takes a *lot*
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Matt DTS longer to produce. 4.0 could have been this fast if you'd been
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willing to wait this long for it. GA.
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AFL Dyfet Will it end up 6.0? ;)
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
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Dave Lyons It would have been nice to have
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Dave Lyons all the optimizations in there in 4.0, or even in the ROM,
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Dave Lyons but that would mean you would have had to wait *longer* for 4.0 to
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be
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Dave Lyons released. There's no holding back--
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JimLaz -! all my point made...
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JimLaz ^s
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Dave Lyons it takes *time* to write code to handle all the special cases and
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get it
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Dave Lyons right.
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AFL Dyfet Okay Marty, GA.
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Dave Lyons It's not that the original code was written *badly*--it was
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written
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Dave Lyons to get the job done in a straightforward way. (Have I babbled
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long enough
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Dave Lyons yet?) GA.
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AFL Marty In one perspecive, it _has_ taken 4.0 this long to come up to
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speed....
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AFL Marty and I don't think the argument about time holds as much water as
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one might
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AFL Marty think...
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AFL Marty It takes man-hours... which can be increased by increasing staff
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working on the
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AFL Dyfet And then we will drop back to Coach for his comment :), and
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eventually his ?.
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AFL Marty project. To say that it would have taken more time...
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AFL Marty presupposes that all other factors remain constant. GA
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Coach101 When Apple makes an announcement or does something, dont go
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looking
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Coach101 for nefarious reasons for their actions (it is possible that Apple
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is
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AFL Marty !
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Coach101 not as devious as you). Look for the good side.... Its makes
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life
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Matt DTS (I withdraw the pointed and barbed ! I had prepared in the
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interests of time. :) )
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Coach101 a lot easire and generally comes closer to the truthc....
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Coach101 Coach no leaving pulpit.... GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Marty, if you are ready, GA.
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AFL Marty I'm not looking for nefarious reasons at all. I'm just stating
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something I
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AFL Marty was wondering about. If I'm wondering it, you can be sure others
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are asking
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AFL Marty the same kinds of things. I think it will be interesting to see
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if the
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AFL Marty differences between system 6.0 and system 5.0 are as great.
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AFL Dyfet I believe the next question falls to Coach. I think this
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particular debate
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AFL Marty Oh... don't worry about saving time... I have lots of time :)
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AFL Marty done
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Coach101 I did not mean a personal attack or offense Marty... I
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Coach101 My ?, while running some "buggy" code that was trashing memory
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for
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AFL Marty (I know)
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Coach101 sure I got a screen from GSOS (40 char mode, I think) that told
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me
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Coach101 I had been had, and that the GS/OS error was 0002. I hit the CR
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and
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Coach101 rebooted fine but could not find an error 0002 anyplace. What
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exactly
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Coach101 is error 2? GA
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Dyfet I knew it would be either Dave or Matt :). GA Matt.
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Matt DTS Fatal system error $0002 means GS/OS tried to allocate necessary
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memory and couldn't get it.
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Matt DTS If it can return with "out of memory" error, it will, but
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sometimes it can't.
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Matt DTS (It's also a blatant signal to developers that they're making
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class 1 calls with class 0 strings.)
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Matt DTS GA
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Coach101 Thanks Matt, in my case just a side effect of thoroughly trashing
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Coach101 memory due to bad manipulation of handles.... Done
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AFL Dyfet Hmm...Okay, I believe the next question is from Jim. GA Jim.
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JimLaz Is there a GS/OS COPY call or a toolcall in 5.0 that will copy
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extended files
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JimLaz (resource).
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
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JimLaz If not is there a way to do this from an application. GS
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JimLaz GS=GA
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Dave Lyons No, but it's easy to use the class-1 OPEN call to open the 2nd
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fork, read it,
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Dave Lyons and write it to the other file. It's hardly any harder than doing
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a regular
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Dave Lyons copy. ga
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JimLaz I thought you wern't suppossed to access the resource fork
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directly...and let
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JimLaz the resource manager do everything.
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Dave Lyons You're not supposed to *interpret* the data yourself--you have
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always had the
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave, this one seems to continually crop up :)
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Dave Lyons right to copy them, squeeze them, unsqueeze them, etc. This
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should have worked
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Dave Lyons fine under 4.0, even. I have heard claims that it did not work
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reliably, but
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Dave Lyons I haven't verified that. ga
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JimLaz Any idea if it's possible form ProDOS 8?
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JimLaz form=from
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AFL Dyfet GA Joe.
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JSchober P8 can't directly access forked files with file based MLI calls.
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You get an
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JSchober Invalid Storage Type error. You =can=, kinda, access files using
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READ_BLOCKS
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JSchober and WRITE_BLOCK calls... Glen Bredon does this in some of the
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latest versions
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JSchober of his utils. Seems pretty hazardous, tho. GA.
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave.
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Dave Lyons What Joe said. A couple days ago I added a "+" next to Davex's
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catalog
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Dave Lyons listings of extended files. Marks them nicely so you know you
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can't do
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Dave Lyons anything with them but rename, lock, unlock.... Can't even delete
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them. ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, any more comments?
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AFL Dyfet I believe the next question is from Dwight. GA Dwight.
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DwightW1 there is a rumor that the gs/os softeware system is steadily being
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updated to
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DwightW1 really accommodate a IIgs hardware conversion to a low-end
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Mac...true?
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AFA Gary J Heh..you think you're going to get any people who REALLY know to
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comment on
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AFA Gary J that?
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Dyfet Rumors abound on everything it seems. Either way, would you
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really expect an
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AFA Parik true? yeah, its true its a rumor
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AFL Dyfet answer :)
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DwightW1 good enought :)
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Dave Lyons (That's exactly what I was going to say, Parik!)
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JSchober :)
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AFA Parik oh no...i'm thinking like lyons. acckkk (or should he be
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scared?)
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AFL Dyfet I do not see how one could view GS/OS 5.0 in that manner simply
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because of all
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AFL Dyfet the hard work optimizing it for a 65816, however. :)
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AFA Parik NONO its SYSTEM DISK v5.0
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AFA Parik GS/OS v2.0 :)
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AFL Dyfet :)
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AFL Dyfet Bad habit. GA Jim.
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Dave Lyons Nope, it's going to be GS/OS 3.0!
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JimLaz What is the GS/OS version number on 5.0?
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JimLaz oppps, hit return before seeing it...
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AFA Parik I hate numbers
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Matt DTS GS/OS 2.0 was on 4.0. GS/OS on 5.0 is 3.0, changed from 2.1 when
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it was 4.1, which it isn't. Got it?
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AFL Dyfet Well, now that that has been streightened out...do we have any
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more questions
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AFL Dyfet for tonight?
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